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Michael Roberts: From ���ϳԹ��� Magazine, this is the ���ϳԹ��� Podcast.

Mikaela Shiffrin: I am recording. Okay. They said start with some casual banter. So I figured we just can talk a little bit about training today.

Eileen Shiffrin: Yeah, how was training today?

Mikaela: You're so natural at this. It's amazing. Okay.

Michael Roberts: This is first time podcast producer and Olympian and World Cup ski racing champion, Mikaela Shiffrin, speaking with her mom, Eileen.

Mikaela: The training itself was pretty great. And I don't know if you saw any of the times from the group message, but.

Eileen: Not yet.

Mikaela: My fastest run was only eight 10ths off of the fastest run,

Eileen: That's awesome.

Michael: Wait, is Eileen eating? That's ok during a podcast interview? Wow. Why have I held back all these years?

Or, uh, maybe it's only ok if you're talking with a relative and the two of you are geeking out on elite athletic training.

Mikaela: We did some gliding yesterday. It is definitely more straining on the eyes. So I need, I think I need to do a little bit more, like, eye strength training.

Eileen: Because it's so weird because you have to look up and

Mikaela: You're just in your tuck position and it's so much strain

Michael: If you pay any attention at all to competitive skiing, you know that Mikaela Shiffrin is one of the greatest of all time. And last winter was a banner season for her. On March 11, 2023, she won her 87th World Cup race, breaking the 34-year-old record for career wins held by Swede Ingemar Stenmark.

For this reason, ���ϳԹ��� put Mikaela on the cover of the newsstand edition of our November-December print magazine, which comes out this week. And because Mikaela has been interviewed umpteen million times, we wanted to do something a bit different.

I'm Michael Roberts, and in my 20-plus years of writing and editing and producing for ���ϳԹ���, I've seen a lot of creative approaches to storytelling. But having an elite athlete interviewed by her mom? That's a new one.

Eileen: All right. Well, let's get to these questions.

Mikaela: Sounds good.

Michael: Eileen has always played an enormous role in her daughter's skiing and her life, and that role grew even larger when Mikaela's father died suddenly a few years ago. Today, Eileen does everything from book Mikaela's flights to break down her latest training runs. Which is why my colleagues figured, what better way to get candid answers from Mikaela than to have Eileen ask the questions?

Abigail Barronian: We've done Mikaela profiles before, several times, and we just wanted to get something like a little more genuine and raw.

Michael: That's ���ϳԹ��� senior editor Abigail Barronian, who put together the interview for the print magazine. She and a few other editors came up with a list of questions that they sent to Eileen and Mikaela, but they also encouraged them to just let the conversation go where it would.

Abigail: We really liked it because we thought that it would maybe give us an opportunity to see a version of Mikayla that you don't normally see

Michael: Did it work? Abigail says definitely.

Abigail: I came away from this interview more interested in Michaela Schifrin and Eileen than I ever have been. Because I just think that there's like such a sweetness there and an earnestness. I was like totally charmed by both of them.

Michael: For today's episode, we're going to listen in on Mikaela and Eileens's conversation, with Abigail and producer Paddy O'Connell offering some helpful context.

Here's Paddy.

Paddy O’Connell: When it comes to Mikaela Shiffrin's success, most ski racing experts have pointed to her "no days off" work ethic or her technical skill or her discipline. None of that stuff has changed.

Mikaela: I'm trying to work on my position in downhill and get better at gliding. And with slalom, I feel like there's room for being like, more precision, more of the time. And with GS, we have some of those technical cues and there's, it's just really exciting to think that I still might be able to get faster.

Eileen: So what continues to motivate you then is like the thought of having little things that you can actually improve on, that you see, that you see that you can improve on. And that's the goal?

Mikaela: The record wasn't a limit. It was just the farthest that someone had gotten to that point.

Paddy: Over the years, it's become very clear just how important Eileen has been to Mikaela's success. But when you listen to the two of them talk about it, you realize that Eileen's impact and importance is even greater than we've imagine

Eileen: What did it feel like to reset Ingimar's record?

Mikaela: Oh gosh. I was mostly worried that I was gonna do it when you weren't there.

Eileen: I know. That's when I said just do it. Who cares whether I'd rather you do it with me not being there than not do it. And I'm there waiting the whole time.

Mikaela: I know! I was walking around Quiltville and I was like, everybody I passed in the hallway, on the street, no matter where it was, everyone was saying, you're gonna break the record this weekend. You're gonna do it here. We want you to do it here. And I was feeling the pressure.

You were like, definitely go for it because you can.

And I was like, mom, I, I'm just going to forget about it. I'm going to stop caring because I'm just, I don't want to think about it anymore.

Eileen: Exactly. I remember that.

Mikaela: It was like the universe said, it's okay to do it now because your family's here and so now do it, like let loose.

Eileen: That is so cool. And then, so once you did it, how did it feel?

Mikaela: I think it just felt, it kind of felt hectic, you know. Mostly because you get about ten and a half seconds to yourself and then, and then you're sort of thrown into the media and the mix zone and, and you have to start talking about how you feel before you've processed how you feel.

Eileen: Right, it's almost like you didn't even feel it.

Mikaela: I didn't even feel it. And I was like, Oh my gosh, where's mom?

Paddy: "Where's mom?" Well, there you have it. Mikaela becomes the winningest skier of all time, and that's her first thought. As Abigail Barronian explains it, this pretty much captures their unique mother-daughter relationship.

Abigail: It is different than any mother daughter relationship in the world because Mikaela is different than any daughter in the world. But I actually think that what stood out to me the most or stands out to me the most is that it reminds me a lot of my relationship with my mom.

Paddy: Really?

Abigail: Which is to say like it's just a very loving, very close, very trusting relationship. Eileen represents Mikaela professionally and like helps her with her managing her team and her schedule, and then also is this huge moral support, and helps Mikayla develop her own like training programs and think about what she needs to focus on with races, but with underpinned by this just like deeply loving, supportive, and trusting parent child relationship.

Paddy: When Mikaela and her brother Taylor were teenagers, they moved from Colorado to Vermont to attend Burke Mountain Academy, a world class ski racing boarding school. Eileen followed. And as Mikaela's racing career took off, Eileen was there every step of the way and grew into her most trusted coach. In fact, the two times Eileen stepped away from coaching, Mikaela's results suffered.

Even with the stellar results, their mother-daughter coach-athlete relationship has always been questioned. Critics can't help but draw comparisons to a stage parent who makes a commodity of their child and lives out their dreams through the kid's triumphs. But Abigail doesn't feel like that critique is based in reality at all.  

Abigail: The way that I see Eileen supporting her and showing up for her still feels like, at its core, deeply maternal. And I, you know, I think as Eileen fills in these different roles of manager or coach or travel planner or whatever, she's approaching them all from this place of like, I'm Michaela's mom first and foremost, and I'm interested in her well-being and her happiness.

To anyone who criticizes that or thinks that's weird, I'm like, man, if I was thrust into the spotlight at such a young age and have so much pressure on me. Of course I would want my mom there. I think it's like the most natural person to turn to for support. And when the nature of your life changes so dramatically at such a young age, it makes a lot of sense that you would want this really constant figure to be there.

Paddy: The Shiffrins have continually had to deal with criticism of their relationship, and not just through the social media trolling we're now all accustomed to. When a 14-year-old Mikaela was at Burke Mountain Academy, she and Eileen would see each other a couple times a week, and often go for walks to catch up. A parent of a classmate of Mikaela's couldn't help but offer her two cents.

Mikaela: She just said something along the lines of like, don't you think it's kind of strange for you and Mikaela to still be so close? And that's kind of how a lot of people have been through my whole life, through our whole relationship. And I just remember, like, that particular conversation on that walk and us both being kind of frazzled by the question, because it was like, what, what's wrong with being close to your family? You know?

Eileen: Yeah. You and I have a multifaceted relationship. I'm your mom, and to some extent your manager, and to some extent your coach, and we're also best friends. And a lot of people assume that, and ask you, I guess ask both of us, if it was hard for us to develop that multifaceted relationship.

As you have stepped into each new role over the past 15 to 20 years, how do you feel about that relationship that we've had, and was it ever hard for you to trust me? 

Mikaela: I felt like it was such a gift for us to be close. And I was like, please look, come look at my skiing with me, help me, you know, help me figure out what I want to do next technically. And let's have dinner and like, you know, let's let's hang out. You know, it was just, it was such a natural thing. It's always been that way. So, and I've never seen that as anything but a gift. I feel like a factor that's set me apart through my ski career to have that closeness with you and with dad and Taylor and just with family in general. And, I mean, even through periods of time where, um, I've, maybe I've been a little bit more difficult, it's still, that's still one of, it's like a fundamental premise in our family philosophy, to be close and to be loving and caring and so that's been some that's carried me through my career and there was never any sort of a lack of trust on that sense.

Paddy: We'll be right back.

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Paddy: ���ϳԹ��� senior editor Abigail Barronian's idea to have Eileen Shiffrin interview her daughter, Mikaela, paid off. The conversation is a look behind the curtain of a unique relationship, but for Abigail it also illuminated something new about one of the most decorated skiers of all time.

Abigail: I came to understand her as not an underdog necessarily, but just like a more sympathetic figure. Mikaela never asked to be an international celebrity. Mikaela's just really good at skiing, and otherwise seems like a pretty normal person.

We meet these athletes once they're successful enough to be like, routinely in the spotlight. And so they always seem larger than life. Mikaela is not a person who moves through the world without fear. The reality is that if you care about your sport, the nerves and the fear never really go away.

Paddy: If the cameras and the glitz-n-glam of ski racing magically disappeared, Abigail believes Mikaela would be much more at ease. Because while she's been in the public eye since she was a teenager, Mikaela Shiffrin is not a naturally public person.  

Eileen: What do you think has been the hardest part and what's been the best part of being so widely recognized? 

Mikaela: I'm actually really interested to hear what you think about this one.

Eileen: I mean, I feel like you have a comfort level now being in the public eye, more so than you did when you first started ski racing and started getting attention for it. I think it was exciting for you at that time.

Mikaela: Yeah.

Eileen: Exciting, but also tiring for you being an introvert and having to be in the public eye. That's tiring for people like you. Some of the hardest part was that you are kind of naturally an introvert who was put in a spotlight and kind of forced to assume a role on the ski team and also a role as a, trying to be a role model for other kids, other athletes on the team.

Mikaela: It's forced me a little bit to learn how to be a bit more comfortable with myself. Like, I think back to the days at Burke if I had to go alone to the cafeteria, to the dining hall, I wouldn't go. I would just skip meals. If for some reason I was on a different schedule than my roommate or friends, I just wouldn't go because I had such a fear of like showing up. I think a lot of people have this, but such a fear of showing up to a room alone when it's already full, there's no seats open and you're just, you're carrying your tray and you're standing there like everybody's already in their conversation. Nobody's missing me.

Eileen: Mm hmm.

Mikaela: I just shouldn't be here. And that was kind of this, such a, such a fear. And like over the years, I still have that. That's still my natural instinct, but I feel just somehow more comfortable with myself to just do what I need to do, exist how I want to exist, and not be quite so worried about what eyes are on me anymore.

Eileen: For so much of your life you've had authority figures, advisors, and mentors, coaches, managers, even dad and myself helping to guide your path. Was there ever a time where you felt you had to fight to create a life that felt like your own?

Mikaela: I never felt like I had to create something, a life of my own or something myself. I mean, I think it's just as I get older, it's just basically continuing each year to find the balance in how we live. We live, we live so close. We travel together really a majority of the year, and I wouldn't change that for the world. But it's kind of, it's like also a balance for you always traveling on the World Cup circuit, which is not really as exciting and fun as most people think it's not really a glamorous thing. It's sometimes just a grind and exhausting, Especially for two people who would basically always rather be home.

But that's, you know, that's almost different than even this question. I think people are interested to know if I've had to fight for independence. And I think it's just like as a 26, 27, 28, 29 year-old, learning what I need in life and most of it revolves around basically being able to share time between skiing and family and then my own relationship and how that looks. And it hasn't been a fight. It's more just been a learning experience, I think.

Eileen: If anything, I would, I would say that you've probably maintained, you've stayed true to your personality that you were born with. And I, I do feel like from my perspective anyway, that you throughout it all, you are able to hold on to that kind of kind, gentle, compassionate personality and not succumb to the peer pressure that goes on during the teenage years when there's so much pressure to be cool.

It didn't really seem to matter to you because you had so much on your plate already. You just seemed to keep your eye on the on the target all the time. You never seem to think it was uncool to be kind.

Mikaela: Some of my most memorable moments throughout my career are when you've given me the advice at sort of key periods where you've said, I feel that you might be losing yourself a bit. And those words strike home for me because it's so, it is so important that I try to stay true to myself.

There's a lot of times in the skiing world, there is an air of kind of coolness about it. A lot of athletes really have to walk around with that confidence because what we do is risky and you have, you have to have some, some level of security with yourself to trust that you can throw yourself down the mountain and come out on the other side and be okay.

I do get that, but then there's kind of this extra swagger that I, we've always felt like it's a little bit unnecessary. But when you're around it a lot, you feel like it's an eat or be eaten world and you have to, you have to fend for yourself. And you have always brought me back down to earth in those scenarios and helped me kind of remember, okay, I can just be me. It's enough.

Eileen: Yep. Right. During those years where they were difficult years and everybody was being cool and you were trying to stay the course and we used to, dad and I used to say just stay the course, and be patient.

Paddy: The patience paid off. Mikaela made her World Cup debut during the 2012 season at age 16, and won the first of her 87 wins at age 17. Then came Olympic medals, overall championships, and record after record.

But in February of 2020, Shiffrin's father, Jeff, died in an accident at their family's home near Vail, Colorado. Throughout both the 2020 and 2021 World Cup seasons, Mikaela still competed, managing her profound grief as well as back injuries. Somehow, she was able to make it on the podium a combined 23 times.

Abigail: Seeing how close Mikaela and Eileen are, I think, illustrated for me how close that whole family unit is, Mikaela and her brother, and her late father, and her mom.

And so I think it sort of painted that loss in a different light for me than I had maybe understood or thought of it before. The ability for that whole team to like continue business as usual and then also honor the loss of Jeff and really grieve that, it's sort of superhuman to me. And like in some ways more superhuman than anything that Michaela does on her skis.

Eileen: We lost dad in 2020.

Mikaela: This is, this is, this one takes a little, you might need to just think about it for a second or whatever. It's just, you're supposed to fill in some words.

Eileen: Yeah, well, I can, I'll tell you. It felt like that dream I have had many times, I think almost everybody has had it, where you're falling. You're just falling. It's a free fall, you're afraid to hit the ground and waiting to hit the ground. And the whole time you're just, you can't even take a breath because you're so, you know, it's like a free fall.

But then now it feels like we're starting to, it took, it took a long time, and it feels like, for me, it feels like I'm getting a handle on things, but at least I don't feel like it's a full on free fall anymore.

Mikaela: Yeah. For sure.

Eileen: And it's not really about moving forward, it's just accepting the things that are unacceptable.

Mikaela: Yeah. And be okay feeling happiness.

Eileen: Exactly. And, and not feeling guilty about feeling happy about other things that are starting to happen.

Mikaela: Most people don't feel guilty for feeling happiness And that's a daily struggle for us.

Eileen: Right. I think that, you know, Dad was one of the, is, was somebody, was the person with, you know, the most integrity that I knew.

He wasn't afraid to, he like, he never worried about keeping up with the Joneses. He was always just trying to do his best, the best he could. He was always looking for ways to learn constantly. And I think that's probably the biggest thing that I'm left with is, I have a lot to learn and I know how dad would tackle it. He would just be like, well I'm gonna go get a book and read about it and learn how to do it.

Mikaela: I'm going to learn about it. If there's something I need to know, I'm going to, I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn it.

Eileen: Yeah, now you go.

Mikaela: Well, I sort of, you were, you know, you were talking about, it's not always moving forward. And so there's so many times where I feel like I haven't moved forward at all since February, since 2020. Sometimes I'm just dodging sideways to maybe avoid some form of an emotional landmine. 

But then, I have grown. I've learned a lot about myself. Like, if you could go back and change it, you would, you would go back and change it. And there is never a world where you think you're better off in, with this new scenario, with a loss of some, like, especially a traumatic loss. But, somehow, there's things that you learn in your life, and there's ways that you grow, that you know you would not have, if that tragedy had not happened. And for me, a lot of it is how much I have always relied on you and dad to basically do everything for me so I could ski. And a lot of my growth as like a human or even an adult in a way, was sort of stunted because I had, I put all my focus on skiing and basically allowed you and dad to handle and manage everything else that most of most kids my age, you know at whatever, 19, 20, 21 years old, kind of had to learn because they're thrown into the fire of college and you know, graduating and getting their first job. And I was just in a different scenario. And this whole thing, this process, this loss, through it, I think I've grown a bit sort of into more of an adult to try to be able to manage a little bit more of the sort of the life essentials, the necessities that go on on a daily basis. But managing that on top of a professional sports career can be a lot. And obviously now I heavily rely on you, but we both have sort of, together, filled a bit of the gap that has been left behind.

I feel like that's forced both of us to learn a lot, and that's actually something I'm really, really proud of. I'm proud of myself, but I'm also just so proud and I'm really inspired by how you have

Eileen: And Taylor.

Mikaela: and Taylor. And absolutely Taylor. How all of us together have kind of found a way to put pieces back in a little bit of a different shape. It doesn't fit like the puzzle of what it did before. But somehow the pieces fit in other spots. And we, you know, every now and then we fill some gaps and we try to learn how to fill those gaps. And, that's, somehow that's really beautiful, even though it's, it's also very painful.

I have to brace myself again, as we head into the start of the race season and we have the media days that all come Before the season starts and into the start of the season and so many people say, you know, are you happy now? Are you better now? How do you feel now after your great season? 

And especially after last year, there's going to be a lot more focus on the record. And when a hundred comes and all of these things. And those are moments where I just feel so misunderstood and so alone, because the question in and of itself, I, I know it's, it's nobody's fault, but the question of, you know, are you, how do you feel now that you've overcome this loss? How do you feel now that you're, that, that, that you're better? 

You look better because you, you seem like you're happy with your family, you're playing golf, you know, you spent time with Alex, all of these great things and, like, those are moments of happiness in my life, but nothing means I'm better. And it's so hard to just explain that, and that's, I just, for both of us, it's like, okay, here's a reminder to brace yourself, because you cannot control what other people feel or ask.

Eileen: Right.

Mikaela: It's not their fault. It's just, it's, sometimes it's just a mistranslation. And you just have to somehow separate your emotion from, like, from the ties to what, like the meaning of what those conversations.

Abigail: I hope people who listen to this or read this story come away with more softness towards Mikaela. I think that it's really easy to be hypercritical of successful athletes. It's also incredibly easy to be a harsh critic of women in the public eye. So Mikaela kind of has these two things stacked against her in a way.

Paddy: I think people feel really comfortable having really, really strong opinions about her. And yeah, I hope people come away from this with like a little more softness and a little more comprehension that this is just like a young woman doing her best. 

Paddy: And her best is pretty Goddamn great.

Abigail: It’s pretty good. Pretty darn good.

Eileen: Yeah, I think we did all the questions.

Mikaela: Yes. I think. Actually, Mom, thank you so much for doing that. I think that was one of the most interesting conversations I've ever had.

Eileen: Aw, that's awesome.

Mikaela:. It was a really cool idea, um, for, you know, from these guys, and I appreciate that you've done this with me.

Eileen: I loved it. It was, it was amazing. So, okay, well we can turn off our things. Our recording and send it, and then catch up more if we need to. 

Mikaela: Okay, sounds good.

Michael Roberts: You can find Mikaela Shiffrin on the cover of the newsstand edition of ���ϳԹ���'s November-December print magazine, available now.

This episode was produced by Paddy O'Connell and edited by me, Michael Roberts. Abigail Barronian led the team that submitted questions to Mikaela and her mom, Eileen. Our music is by Robbie Carver.

The ���ϳԹ��� Podcast is made by possible by ���ϳԹ���+ subscribers. Learn about all the benefits of a subscription and subscribe now at outsideonline.com/podplus

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